What is the Garmin 6-pin Y-cable

SaltNz posted :

    I am nearing the end of a boat rebuild
    project and fitting tthrugh hull transducers.
    I have tried to go for an all n2k network and
    thought I was on the right track with a garmin
    gmi 10 and sensors and buy an MFD closer to
    launch date. I was after a speed sensor and
    thought because I had already fitted a b60
    transducer there was no need for the dst800
    so bought the cheaper st850 with garmin part
    number 010-10365-00.

The corollary to "Measure Twice, Cut Once" is "Think Twice, Buy Once". Sorry you had to learn this the hard way.

    Foolishly I fitted the collar and then only
    while checking it out noticed that there was
    a 6-pin Y-cable. I contacted the garmin
    support via email asking what it was and
    could it be re-wired and if it was compatible
    with the gps 5xx range how did it connect.
    The response was "not compatible with gmi 10
    buy a dst800". Now the collar is already
    fitted so I can not take it back to the shop.

No, but you can probably buy a replacement through-hull housing ("collar", as you called it) as an inexpensive spare part, then re-sell the entire unit via Craigslist or similar. You won't recoup your entire investment; but it's something.

    It looks like the dst800 has a different
    collar so I would rather buy an adapter,
    re-wire it or buy another sensor to slot
    into existing collar.

Don't kludge up your boat. Do it right. If the DST800 will not fit the already-installed housing (and offhand, I don't know if it will or won't), then bite the bullet and remove it before PROPERLY installing the DST800.

    I see there is a wiring diagram on the
    airmar website if I used a field install
    able adapter would it work on n2k?

Not if the ST850 is not already the NMEA 2000 version -- which, based on the response from Garmin you reported, it isn't.

HOWEVER...

If the "wiring diagram" you are referring to is the one found at

       http://www.airmartechnology.com/uploads/wiringdiagrams/91_732.pdf

then it is showing an NMEA 0183 connection.

So IF you have some other instrument aboard capable of receiving and processing the NMEA 0183 "sentences" noted on the ST800/ST850 product sheet:

       $VWVHW .......... Speed
       $VWVLW .......... Distance
       $YXMTW .......... Water Temperature

then you could potentially use that instrument to display the data from the ST850.

Further, IF that instrument (perhaps your chartplotter?) will also translate those NMEA 0183 sentences into NMEA 2000 PGNs and propagate them onto the N2K bus, then you would effectively be in the same place as you would have been with a DST800 -- but the odds are rather strongly against you already having this "translation" capability; and it near-certainly is not worth the effort & expense to add it as a separate device, just for this purpose.

    The problem is I do not even know what
    protocol this sensor uses the Airmar
    website just says there is a analogue
    and n2k version but makes know
    reference to any product numbers.

While the website usage of the term "analog" is somewhat confusing (and misleading, IMCO), I strongly suspect there are only two main versions of the ST850 (or the DST800, for that matter) -- namely, NMEA 0183 or NMEA 2000. The former is available with a variety of different connectors on the far end of the cable, to facilitate "plug & play" installation with different vendors' instruments; hence the different part numbers. But electrically, that is irrelevant.

    I Have no idea even what you use a
    6-pin Y cable for or what it is
    supposed to connect to

See above.

Good luck.

Thanks for that definitive answer I guess that puts that llittle puppy to bed . Let this be a lesson to all the other readers. When it comes to boats whenever you try and save a few bucks you always end up throwing away money, time and effort away and end up buying what you wre too cheap to fork out for in the first place
:o)

SaltNz posted :

    Thanks for that definitive answer I guess
    that puts that llittle puppy to bed . Let
    this be a lesson to all the other readers.
    When it comes to boats whenever you try
    and save a few bucks you always end up
    throwing away money, time and effort away
    and end up buying what you wre too cheap
    to fork out for in the first place
    :o)

One further thought, which might save you some trouble (if not some money)...

Since there apparently IS an NMEA 2000 version of the ST850, and since you apparently don't want/need a second source of depth data, you could buy that instead of the DST800. And IF I'm reading the product sheet correctly, it appears to use the same through-hull housing(s) as the NMEA 0183 version. Hence, you should be able to simply mount the "new" ST850 into that already-installed housing, instead of having to uninstall it and install another one. If you're really lucky, you might even be able to then return the "old" ST850, along with the housing/collar from the new one.

You should be sure to check this with Airmar before proceeding; but I suspect there's a good chance it would work.

Food for thought, anyway.

OK thanks for that lttleldoo2. I am more interested in not having to fit another housing rather than trying to save money (I tried saving money the first time and got burnt). I have been looking for an email address to send my enquiry to but it is not clear on the website and now the website seems broken for now.
I do have a question for you about your diagnosis that the wiring diagram you are referring to is nmea0183. Is it because it has the nmea+&- wires?
I see there is a simrad st850 that has a similar interface a my b60. The wiring diagram looks totally different is this nmea2000?
http://www.airmartechnology.com/uploads/wiringdiagrams/91_023.pdf
I selected the garmin range because i read somewhere that of all the brands out there that if you bought a sensor that was compatible it was going to be n2k. I have since learnt this is not true.
I am starting to get worried about my b60 now. I have only fitted the through hulls sensors, not wired anything up yet as that is a task for a bit later. I see I need an adapter for my b60 is it n2k or have I made another mistake here?
http://airmartechnology.com/uploads/SpecApps/airmaremea_mixandmatch_cable_12x18_poster_MR.pdf

SaltNz posted :

    OK thanks for that lttleldoo2. I am more
    interested in not having to fit another
    housing rather than trying to save money
    (I tried saving money the first time and
    got burnt).

To be perfectly candid, I don't think it was your desire to save money that led you astray; rather, it was your proceding to buy parts without a fundamental general understanding of how this stuff works, and without a clear plan for what you wanted to achieve.

    I have been looking for an email address
    to send my enquiry to but it is not clear
    on the website and now the website seems
    broken for now.

What "website" are you referring to?

    I do have a question for you about
    your diagnosis that the wiring diagram
    you are referring to is nmea0183. Is it
    because it has the nmea+&- wires?

Well, among other things, yes..

    I see there is a simrad st850 that has
    a similar interface a my b60. The wiring
    diagram looks totally different is this
    nmea2000?
    http://www.airmartechnology.com/uploads/wiringdiagrams/91_023.pdf

No. That appears to be a direct ANALOG speed/temp interface specific to older Autohelm and Navico sailboat instruments. Where did you find that .PDF file? Or more to the point, where did you find the REFERENCE to it. That reference should also tell you what it is.

    I selected the garmin range because i
    read somewhere that of all the brands out
there that if you bought a sensor that was compatible it
    was going to be n2k. I have since learnt
    this is not true.

I don't know that the statement in question is so much "untrue" as so badly mangled and misinterpreted as to be near-meaningless. Frankly, it strikes me as being essentially a non sequitur.

    I am starting to get worried about my b60
    now.

Why?

    I have only fitted the through hulls sensors,
    not wired anything up yet as that is a task
    for a bit later. I see I need an adapter for
    my b60 is it n2k or have I made another mistake
    here?
    http://airmartechnology.com/uploads/SpecApps/airmaremea_mixandmatch_cable_12x18_poster_MR.pdf

First, based on that URL, I am presuming that what you mean by "adapter" is the vendor-specific "Mix and Match" cable. You would only need this if (and it would only be useful to you if) you bought the "Mix and Match" version of the B60 transducer, as opposed to a vendor-specific version.

This leads to a fairly obvious question: For EXACTLY what piece of gear did you buy that B60? (In other words, what fishfinder do you have aboard, or plan to install?)

Second... NO, the B60 is NOT an NMEA 2000 device; nor could it do its job if it were.

As for whether or not you made another mistake, that would depend on exactly what you were trying to accomplish -- which you have not yet really explained.

I get the strong impression that you REALLY need a basic grounding in what NMEA 2000 is (and isn't). Start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NMEA_2000

and continue here:

http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac/2250_TechnicalReferenceforGarminNMEA2000Products.pdf

And then, come back with a COMPLETE and detailed description of ALL the electronics you have, or plan to install, on this boat; as well as a reasonably cogent explanation of what you expect those electronics to do for you. A brief description of the boat itself, and your intended use for it, might be useful as well.

OK thanks.
I have a garmin gws/gmi 10 wind bundle with the n2k starter kit a b60 transducer and my st850 in question
I have a 7metre sailboat that goes onto a trailer. I wanted to mate wind and speed to achieve apparent and true wind.
I like fishing and bought the non vendor specific b60 upon the understanding that I should be able to use this with any MFD (recommendations welcome) providing I get the correct mix and match cable.
I did not want to be dealing with protocol converters and I wanted to select a network that if maybe further down the line if I wanted to add sensor of some description it would not be a big deal. My primary objective is to finish my project and worry about what else I might need later, at the time I made a desicion that I wanted to steer clear of 0183 and use n2k nest all my through hull sensors and worry about other electronics in they final stages (next couple of months)

Other devices that are future possibilities are a tiller pilot that can steer to wind angle. Sailing by yourself can get a bit tricky at times especially in a area where the wind can whip up very quickly. I understand the raymarine requires 0183 or seatalk and the simrad t22 can use a simnet converter to n2k. However this is just a possibility.
Maybe a digital compass I need to get a new one, but maybe a good ole fashioned one will do.

Yes maybe there was an element of truth to your assumption about me not having a clear understanding. Electronics are a final part of the project and my immediate objective was to install the through hull sensors. I had read numerous material including both those links provided and came to the conclusion that I should go with n2k. Just because I ask questions that are not covered in that material does not mean I do not have an understanding about what n2k is and is not. Possibly because I went down the tangent of the b60, but that is a problem I will tackle when purchasing a MFD.

I work in the IT networking industry and have a very good understanding of what the difference between the two protocols and what it means in the logical sense maybe not so when it comes to schematics. However in the IT industry we have an acronym RTFM read the $&?!#!£% manual. Used when you jump into something gun-ho get stuck and have to resort to reading what you should have in the first place.
However in all my years in working with technology and understanding exactly what they are compatible with I have never come across as muddier waters as finding out exactly what the st850 is and what protocols it is compatible with. Material tells you there is an n2k version out there, but what is it.

As I said before this is a rebuild project that has gone way over schedule and I really did not want to get bogged down in elements that were too premature to be dealing with right now. I wanted to select my through hull sensors and install them, as when the boat is on the cradle and you are rebuilding around where those sensors go it is the obvious time to install them. The problem I have is being able to indentify what network the device is compatible with. I thought one of the whole advantages of n2k is that you need not need to know the nitty gritty of all the physical elements and wiring schematics you created your n2k network and you just plugged it into the network and....... tada. Is that a reasonable assumption so far.

Maybe I am missing something here, but to me it looks like all the RTFMing in the world can not tell me how I can get my hands on this elusive n2k st850.

I can see no reference to what each device is, referenced in this link that is the source if that wiring diagram you asked where I got

http://airmartechnology.com/uploads/SpecApps/airmaremea_mixandmatch_cable_12x18_poster_MR.pdf

And the brochure references says there is an analogue and an n2k version, but all it specifies is

Furuno Analog Plastic—ST-02PSB——Airmar—31-590-2-41
Furuno Analog Bronze—ST-02MSB——Airmar—31-590-2-51
Garmin—010-10365-00——Airmar—31-590-3-41

How do identify this product and then buy it?

ST850
Certification Level: B
Software Version: 1.012/1.004
Hardware Version: 14
Model #: ST850
Date Certified: 1/7/2010
Load Equivalency Number: 2
ST850 Water Speed and Temperature NMEA 2000 Sensor
Retractable insert for easy cleaning and service
Thru-hull, plastic, bronze, or stainless steel housings with valve
6 m (20') NMEA 2000 cable with Devicenet connector
ST850 style retrofits into existing Airmar P17 & B17 2" housings

From
http://www.nmea.org/content/nmea_standards/certified_produ.asp?a=1&searchText=&PageNumber=2

I guess the short answer is I should have bought the dst800 as that has a clearly identified n2k product, BUT I did not and I would rather not install another housing, but locate this elusive product above.

Part of the problem I have faced is I live in a small country and smallish city and when consulting the local marine store got nothing but confused looks when I asked questions about nmea. They seemed to just reference a chart about vendor specific sensors and did not seem to know what much about it.
In fact the only wind speed kit I was able to buy from a store was the ray marine st60 wind/speed/depth kit that had too many displays, nmea0183 and very expensive.
In fact the only way I could get anything else was through the Internet.

I'm going to try to break this down in to small, manageable chunks...

SaltNz posted :

    I have a garmin gws/gmi 10 wind bundle
    with the n2k starter kit a b60 transducer
    and my st850 in question

OK, so far, so good. But do understand that not only are there are multiple VERSIONS of both the B60 and the ST850, they are fundamentally different beasts in at least one other very significant way:

The B60 transducer is indeed just that -- a "dumb" transducer, which must be driven off a depth sounder of some sort. If it will help, consider the analogy of a passive or "raw" loudspeaker, which must be driven off an amplifier.

The ST850 is available in both "dumb" form (which is apparently what you mistakenly bought), and as what Airmar refers to as a "SmartSensor". In "dumb" form, there are two signals output from the unit: One of them is EITHER a series of simple pulses whose rate (over time) correlates to how fast the paddlewheel is spinning, OR (as in this case, apparently) a variable voltage which also correlates to that same physical motion, but as interpreted through a Hall Effect sensor (cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_effect). The other signal is a resistance value (of a thermistor embedded in the unit) which correlates to the sea water temperature. Refer back to that wiring diagram you mentioned earlier ( http://www.airmartechnology.com/uploads/wiringdiagrams/91_023.pdf ) to see what I'm talking about here. (Yes, that particular drawing is specific to the version intended to interface to Autohelm and Simrad gear. But that distinction is only significant in terms of the pinout and connector style; the actual FUNCTIONALITY is the same.) Obviously, these are ANALOG signals. Hence, it is designed for DIRECT connection to an instrument capable of understanding those analog signals. Among the Garmin products listed as compatible with that #010-10365-00 version of the ST850 are all those listed here:

http://support.garmin.com/search/generalResults.faces?q=010-10365-00&site=General

Note that the GMI-10 is NOT among those. It interfaces (to whatever) ONLY via NMEA 2000. So while it can receive the wind data from the (also NMEA 2000) GWS-10, it cannot understand what the (analog) ST850 is pitching; and without that STW data, it cannot derive true wind speed/direction.

By contrast, the "SmartSensor" form of the ST850 (as well as the DST800, for that matter) has all the associated electronics (including the actual depth-sounder module itself, in the case of the DST800) built into the "transducer" housing. As such, it outputs DIGITAL data (primarily, if not exclusively, in the form of alphanumeric ASCII strings), using EITHER of two possible formats for two possible networks -- namely, NMEA 0183 or NMEA 2000 (depending on the version of the ST850 or DST800 in question). To revisit our analogy from the second paragraph above, it is both speaker, and amplifier, and compact disk player (including the D/A conversion inherent therein), all rolled into one. As I hope you now understand, that is a huge fundamental difference from the analog signals produced by "dumb" transducers.

    I have a 7metre sailboat that goes onto a
    trailer. I wanted to mate wind and speed
    to achieve apparent and true wind.

OK, I'm assuming that the ST850 was intended to give you the STW data so that you could then do true/apparent wind. So far, so good.

But then, what was the B60 supposed to connect to? Ahhh... I see you get to that next:

    I like fishing and bought the non vendor
    specific b60 upon the understanding that
    I should be able to use this with any MFD
    (recommendations welcome) providing I get
    the correct mix and match cable.

At least in theory, that is correct. But I really don't understand why you would bother to buy, let alone install, a transducer for a piece of gear that you have not yet even decided on, let alone purchased.

    I did not want to be dealing with protocol
    converters and I wanted to select a network
    that if maybe further down the line if
    I wanted to add sensor of some description
    it would not be a big deal.

That is a reasonable approach. But be aware that there really is no such thing as a "protocol converter" in the context of analog transducers/sensors vs. digital networks (such as NMEA 0183 or NMEA 2000) -- because there is no "protocol" at all in the context of an analog signal.

There ARE converters available to adapt NMEA 0183 to NMEA 2000 (and vice versa); but you are wise to avoid them if possible, especially on what is effectively a "new build". They are mostly intended as "Band-Aids", to permit adapting old gear to new, such as when a complete refit is not in order.

    My primary objective is to finish my
    project and worry about what else I might
    need later, at the time I made a desicion
    that I wanted to steer clear of 0183 and
    use n2k nest all my through hull sensors
    and worry about other electronics in they
    final stages (next couple of months)

Again, a reasonable approach -- EXCEPT, that, you still seem to be having some trouble grasping the fact that in the context of (graphical) fishfinders, neither NMEA 0183 nor NMEA 2000 is appropriate (or can work at all, for that matter) for their primary function.

[As a purely coincidental "bonus feature", most popular fishfinder models ALSO offer some form of NMEA connectivity in order to conveniently display ancillary data generated by other devices, or to "export" data generated by the fishfinder/transducer combination itself (such as sea temp, STW, or sometimes even a numerical value for total depth to the bottom after that value has been derived within the fishfinder's circuitry); but don't let this side issue confuse the fundamental point.]

Remember, at least in the context of depth sounders of any stripe, both versions of NMEA can only deal with simple alphanumeric data. But for a fishfinder to do its job, it MUST have access to MUCH more detailed and higher-resolution ANALOG data from a transducer which it directly controls.

    Other devices that are future possibilities
    are

OK, let's set that part aside for the moment, so as to not confuse things further. We'll come back to it later.

    Yes maybe there was an element of truth
    to your assumption about me not having a
    clear understanding. Electronics are a
    final part of the project and my immediate
    objective was to install the through hull
    sensors. I had read numerous material
    including both those links provided and
    came to the conclusion that I should go
    with n2k.

As mentioned above, that is a reasonable decision. But my impression is (or at least "was") that you were expecting N2K to handle things it was never designed for, and cannot do.

    Just because I ask questions that are not
    covered in that material does not mean I
    do not have an understanding about what
    n2k is and is not. Possibly because I went
    down the tangent of the b60, but that is a
    problem I will tackle when purchasing a MFD.

Well, I would suggest that you at least make a semi-final decision on which MFD/chartplotter you will be purchasing, so that you will be in a better position to determine what other bits & pieces will best tie into that, and how.

    I work in the IT networking industry and
    have a very good understanding of what the
    difference between the two protocols and
    what it means in the logical sense maybe
    not so when it comes to schematics. However
    in the IT industry we have an acronym RTFM
    read the $&?!#!£% manual.

I know the term well. I am now mostly retired after spending ~30 years running my own computer systems consulting company. Yes, I lived through "Where is the 'Any' key?" ;-)

    However in all my years in working with
    technology and understanding exactly what
    they are compatible with I have never come
    across as muddier waters as finding out
    exactly what the st850 is and what protocols
    it is compatible with. Material tells you
    there is an n2k version out there, but what
    is it.

Well, part of that confusion is surely due to the fact that "the ST850" is not just ONE specific product (as in one specific part number, with one finite set of attributes). Rather, it is the GENERAL model name for a "family" of products, all based on the same core device(s).

This is very much like, for example, an "HP LaserJet 8100" -- which is/was actually sold in at least four significantly different forms, with or without any of several different network interfaces and with or without a duplexer. (Not to mention all the secondary options, such as additional memory and hard disk storage, multi-mailbox output sorters with or without automatic staplers, various font packs in firmware, and so on.). In effect, you bought the parallel-interface version of that 8100, but are attempting to connect it via ethernet.

As for the "correct" part number for the NMEA 2000 version of the ST850, you probably ought to call (or e-mail, given the geography) Airmar themselves to confirm this before you actually purchase something; but I believe what you're looking for is the "ST850PV-N2".

    As I said before this is a rebuild project
    that has gone way over schedule and I really
    did not want to get bogged down in elements
    that were too premature to be dealing with
    right now.

Understandable. But selecting a marine electronics package for any boat -- even one as small as yours -- is something which really cannot be properly done in a vacuum. Yes, NMEA 2000 has finally brought SOME degree of universal interchangeability ("plug-n-play", if you will) to the scene; but it is nowhere near as generic or as all-encompassing as at least your initial posts led me to think you believed. In a sense, NMEA 2000 is a means to an end, rather than the end goal in and of itself; and it does NOT cover everything.

As such, selecting and installing all of your transducers & sensors before you've selected the basic electronics themselves is really putting the cart before the horse.

    I wanted to select my through hull sensors
    and install them, as when the boat is on
    the cradle and you are rebuilding around
    where those sensors go it is the obvious
    time to install them.

Fair enough. But you kind'a jumped the gun even further than this, by skipping over not only the installation of the main electronics pieces, but also their selection.

    The problem I have is being able to indentify
    what network the device is compatible with.
    I thought one of the whole advantages of n2k
    is that you need not need to know the nitty
    gritty of all the physical elements and wiring
    schematics you created your n2k network and
    you just plugged it into the network and.......
    tada. Is that a reasonable assumption so far.

Well, within the context of those devices for which N2K is appropriate in the first place, that's "approximately reasonable". What I mean by that is that, even within the general standardization afforded by NMEA 2000, there can still be (and often are) little "quirks" to deal with here and there. NMEA 2000 is still, today, a moving target, undergoing active development by multiple entities, few (if any) of which are in lock-step with each other. The "certification" process implemented by NMEA themselves is an attempt to bring a far greater degree of order to this inherently chaotic process than was ever the case with NMEA 0183; and notwithstanding that this bureaucratic overhead has greatly impeded progress and innovation in some cases, it has for the most part accomplished its goal.

But the larger -- and I think, in your case, most on-point -- issue is that NMEA 2000 was NEVER designed or intended to replace ALL other forms of electronic interfacing commonly used aboard a boat. For example, it is fundamentally impossible to use NMEA 2000 to interface a RADAR system to an MFD/chartplotter, or to interface a "black box" fishfinder module to that same MFD/chartplotter, or to interface an appropriate transducer to that fishfinder module. In ALL of these cases, NMEA 2000 both lacks the required bandwidth and fails to support the basic type/format of data needing to be transferred.

Now, I'm only guessing here; but I strongly suspect it was this unrealistic expectation of NMEA 2000's "universal" applicability that first led you astray.

    Maybe I am missing something here, but to
    me it looks like all the RTFMing in the
    world can not tell me how I can get my hands
    on this elusive n2k st850.

As mentioned above, look for an "ST850PV-N2", as shown (just for a few examples) on the following retailers' web sites:

http://www.boemarine.com/AIRMAR_ST850_NMEA_2000_Plastic_TH_Speed-Temp-GCO-ST850PV-N2
http://www.blueheronmarine.com/NMEA-2000-ST850-Plastic-Transducer-ST850PV-N2-7566
http://www.imarineusa.com/AirmarST850PlasticNMEA2K.aspx
http://www.navigatorschoice.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=4414

Which, if any, of these retailers will ship to New Zealand, I have no idea. But I cannot imagine that the same product is not locally available to you.

    I can see no reference to what each device
    is, referenced in this link that is the
    source if that wiring diagram you asked
    where I got

    http://airmartechnology.com/uploads/SpecApps/airmaremea_mixandmatch_cable_12x18_poster_MR.pdf

OK, you're apparently still confusing analog and digital.

***ALL*** of those "Mix And Match" models are ANALOG devices, by definition. The sole context in which they are "cross-compatible" (so to speak) is that the various different vendor-specific extension cables (which run from the "universal" Airmar connector attached to the transducer itself to whatever helm instrument is being used) permit the pinouts and connector styles to be adapted to these various different manufacturers' proprietary standards. This differs from the older-style "vendor-specific" analog transducers only in that the vendor-specific connector (with their particular pinout) is not hard-wired to the transducer; and thus, you don't need to do cutting & splicing if you later change from (for example) a Furuno fishfinder/sounder to a (for example) Raymarine fishfinder/sounder.

    And the brochure references says there
    is an analogue and an n2k version, but
    all it specifies is
   
    Furuno Analog Plastic—ST-02PSB——Airmar—31-590-2-41
    Furuno Analog Bronze—ST-02MSB——Airmar—31-590-2-51
    Garmin—010-10365-00——Airmar—31-590-3-41

Again, ***ALL*** vendor-specific transducer P/Ns are by definition ANALOG devices, not "SmartSensors".

    How do identify this product and then buy it?

See above.

    ST850
    Certification Level: B
    Software Version: 1.012/1.004
    Hardware Version: 14
    Model #: ST850
    Date Certified: 1/7/2010
    Load Equivalency Number: 2
    ST850 Water Speed and Temperature NMEA 2000 Sensor
    Retractable insert for easy cleaning and service
    Thru-hull, plastic, bronze, or stainless steel housings with valve
    6 m (20') NMEA 2000 cable with Devicenet connector
    ST850 style retrofits into existing Airmar P17 & B17 2" housings

Now THOSE specs obviously apply to the NMEA 2000 version of the ST850.

    From
http://www.nmea.org/content/nmea_standards/certified_produ.asp?a=1&searchText=&PageNumber=2

And that's obviously why.

    I guess the short answer is I should have
    bought the dst800 as that has a clearly
    identified n2k product,

Well, that would have made things simpler of course. But that's also water under the keel at this point.

    BUT I did not and I would rather not install
    another housing, but locate this elusive
    product above.

As shown above, it's not so elusive. You just need to know what you really want.

    Part of the problem I have faced is I live
    in a small country and smallish city and
    when consulting the local marine store got
    nothing but confused looks when I asked
    questions about nmea.

Don't sell New Zealand short! Any country that can come up with KZ-1 to wrest the America's Cup away from Dennis Connor can surely properly outfit a 20-odd-foot trailer-sailer. If you're getting blank stares when you mention "NMEA 2000", you should be dealing with a different chandlery; for whomever you were talking to is clearly a complete idiot.

OK, before closing, back to this...

    Other devices that are future possibilities
    are a tiller pilot that can steer to wind
    angle. Sailing by yourself can get a bit
    tricky at times especially in a area where
    the wind can whip up very quickly. I
    understand the raymarine requires 0183 or
    seatalk and the simrad t22 can use a simnet
    converter to n2k. However this is just a
    possibility. Maybe a digital compass I need
    to get a new one, but maybe a good ole
    fashioned one will do.

Before worrying about an autopilot, you're going to need at least an MFD/chartplotter. The choices here are completely wide-open, and the costs (as well as the features & capabilities) can vary IMMENSELY. However, in an admittedly arbitrary effort to narrow things down, I'll focus on two aspects:

1. - You have a very small boat, with tiller steering.
2. - You want to do both fishfinding and basic sailboat navigation, with an autopilot being a possible (but uncertain) future expansion/addition.

Given that you already have (in the form of that B60) a Garmin-specific fishfinder transducer, the most expedient solution would be something like the GPSMap 700-series, with the optional built-in sounder module. In your part of the world, that would presumably be the 720S model; see: https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=150&pID=37719.

The B60 would connect to the dedicated transducer port on the back of the 720S; your NMEA 2000 devices (such as the wind instruments and the GMI-10 -- and HOPEFULLY a good AIS-compatible/equipped VHF radio) would connect via the N2K backbone, to which you would add a drop for the 720S.

To this, you would probably want to add some additional/enhanced cartography, as the "worldwide basemap" is very minimal, and does not offer sufficient detail for safe navigation IMCO. Depending on exactly where you do your sailing, and how much money you want to spend vs. what extra bells & whistles you require, this could be any of the following:

BlueChart g2:
PC416S - New Zealand North US$99.28
PC417S - New Zealand South US$99.28

BlueChart g2 Vision:
PC023R - New Zealand US$321.42
PC416S - New Zealand North US$267.85
PC417S - New Zealand South US$267.85

See http://my.garmin.com/mapCoverage/coverage.faces?country=REGAU to see the various coverage areas.

HOWEVER... Garmin does not build or sell a tiller-style autopilot. This means that if/when you add that device, you would need to go with a third-party unit and interface it via whatever means (presumably either NMEA 0183 or NMEA 2000) provided by that unit. Now, this can (and should) work fine, and should not dissuade you from buying a Garmin MFD/chartplotter, if that's what you want; but you MAY lose a few of the more esoteric features which would be available in a homogeneous single-vendor system.

OR... If you know for sure that you not only want an autopilot, but that it is an essential part of your electronics suite, then you might want to consider the Simrad NSS7 http://www.simrad-yachting.com/en-NZ/Products/NSS-Touchscreen-Navigation/NSS7-Chartplotter-en-nz.aspx; or, if space (and budget) permit, the Simrad NSS8 http://www.simrad-yachting.com/en-NZ/Products/NSS-Touchscreen-Navigation/NSS8-Chartplotter-en-nz.aspx, or even the Simrad NSE8 http://www.simrad-yachting.com/en-NZ/Products/NSE-Network-Navigation/NSE-Chartplotter-en-nz.aspx or B&G Zeus 8 http://www.bandg.com/en-NZ/Products/Zeus-8/?groupId=1091 models. All of these, being Navico products, would permit the seamless integration of that TP22 autopilot you mentioned (or the upgraded TP32 model, for that matter); and when so configured, ALL of the autopilot functions (probably even including the initial setup/commissioning, tho' I'm not absolutely certain that last feature applies to the tiller versions of Simrad's autopilots) could be performed directly from the MFD/charplotter, with no need to even touch the TP22. How important that is on a boat the size of yours is quite debatable, of course; but it's your call.

With regard to the fishfinder function, the NSS7 and NSS8 models include a built-in sounder module, said to be identical to the add-on BSM-1 http://www.simrad-yachting.com/en-NZ/Products/Echosounders/BSM-1-en-nz.aspx "black box" module you'd need for the NSE8 or Zeus 8, and surely adequate for your purposes. But either way, you would need to either replace or adapt the B60 to interface to this, as Simrad/B&G uses a different cable connector & pinout.

Please understand, these are by NO means the only possible choices; but they're reasonable ones, and you need to make these decisions BEFORE you can know exactly what you're doing with transducers.

And finally, please accept my apologies for being so long-winded. As the saying goes, "I didn't have time to write a short answer." I hope it has been helpful.

One other thing, I forgot to address...

SaltNz posted :

    I like fishing and bought the non vendor
    specific b60 upon the understanding that
    I should be able to use this with any MFD
    (recommendations welcome) providing I get
    the correct mix and match cable.

I could be wrong; but at this point I am 99.999% certain that you did NOT in fact buy "the non vendor specific b60". The part number you quoted, "010-10365-00 " is for the GARMIN-SPECIFIC version of that product. The part numbers for the "Mix and Match" version of the B60 are "31-554-2-01" and "31-556-2-01", for the 12- and 20-degree tilt versions respectively.

You can confirm this easily enough for yourself by simply looking at the transducer and its cable(s): If it has a single long-ish (at least 20 feet, probably more) cable with a round 5- or 6-pin connector on the end, my contention above is correct. OTOH, if it has a SHORT (probably 6 feet or so) cable with some other sort of (probably 9-pin) connector on it, AND a second (much longer; probably close to 30 feet) cable was included which mates to this first connector and has the aforementioned round 5- or 6-pin connector on the other end, then you have the "Mix and Match" version.

Hi thanks for your response and thorough explanation.
I can put that speed sensor to bed now by purchasing the right product, n2k variant of st850.
I do not mean to sell New Zealand short, but we are a very small country with only one city over a million and unless you are in Auckland the options are extremely limited. I had a friend going to the US at about the time i needed my through-hull sensors and bought the gmi wind bundle and b60 over the Internet and had her "mule" them back for me and paid less than half price than any other option available to me. Just goes to show the difference between the US market and a tiny market in this part of the world plus local sales taxes. It also demonstrates supply issues we have here, as to even buy that stuff from local chandeliers I would would have had to wait until they had three purchases from garmin at that shop before they would ship from Australia. I did buy my st850 from the only other local chandeliers because of the above reason, they had it in stock, but seemed less knowledgeable than the others. Limited supply, limited options a small market and because very few people buy stuff like this hard to get good advice from a store that has what you want.

When I first set out of this selection process my heart was pretty set on the Garmin and in particular the 750s (garmin x5x refers to our local geography i believe) and I did not purchase it then because I did not need it then and launch date was still a long way away and maybe new models would be released in that time.
Since that time of have been looking at other options and a tiller pilot interface would definitely be a clincher for me. My b60 is 31-544-2-01 with a "5-pin male airmar" connector that is on a pretty short cable. I am yet to get the mix and match cable so I am hoping my options are still open to other brands and my Garmin n2k stuff will just work with anything, maybe an appropriate connector is needed.
I had been looking at the simrad and b&g stuff because of the autopilot interface and quite keen on it, but I read in the operations manual somewhere that it needed one of the autopilot computers and I was confused about what this meant when it came to the tp22. I was always going to travel to Auckland to purchase my MFD from one of he many more options available there and get all the benefits of going to the store rather than over the Internet.
What about the lowrance hds7 gen 2? Being from the same parent company as simrad and b&g I would have thought it would have been pretty similar under the hood, but can find no reference to interfacing with a autopilot. Most competively priced MFD in that range and from what i understand is pretty new hardware compared to others. Then as I discovered today on panbo there is that new touch variant. Does the lowrance branch share that autopilot functionality? Website is pretty sparse on specifics

SaltNz posted :

    Hi thanks for your response and thorough
    explanation.

No problem. I hope I've helped clear up some of the confusion.

    I can put that speed sensor to bed now by
    purchasing the right product, n2k variant
    of st850.

Right.

At this point, I think that's your simplest option. I'm reasonably confident that they both use the same through-hull housing; so, at least in theory, you should be able to just slip the new element into the through-hull you've already installed -- no muss, no fuss. And if you get REALLY lucky, you might even be able to return the original one, using the (still virgin) through-hull housing packaged with the new one.

    When I first set out of this selection process
    my heart was pretty set on the Garmin and in
    particular the 750s (garmin x5x refers to our
    local geography i believe)

All well and good, but DO confirm that cartography before purchasing the unit. While Garmin does list a separate "Australia-specific" part number (010-00835-07 ) for the GPSMAP 750s, the verbiage on their web site explicitly states:

        GPSMAP 750s contains preloaded
        coastal charts for the U.K. and
        Ireland. For all other areas,
        GPSMAP 750s has a worldwide basemap.

As I mentioned before, that "worldwide basemap" is simply not detailed enough for safe navigation, IMCO. So if that "Australia-specific" 750s does NOT contain detailed coastal cartography for the Australia/NZ area (there could be other reasons for the different part numbers), then you might as well save some money and go with the 720s, as you will need to purchase one of those add-on card cards I mentioned previously anyway.

    Since that time of have been looking at other
    options and a tiller pilot interface would
    definitely be a clincher for me.

Do not misunderstand: You CAN interface pretty much any brand tiller-style autopilot to pretty much any brand MFD/chartplotter, via NMEA 0183. And this is all that is really needed for (at least) basic route-following. So you should not necessarily rule out such things as, for example, using a Garmin 7x0s with a Simrad TP22. However, in the specific case of the TP22, you ALSO have the option to use "SimNet" to interface the AP to the GPS/chartplotter ("SimNet" and NMEA 2000" are functionally near-identical, but use different connectors; so you would also need an adapter cable to make this work). And again, if you happen to be using a non-Simrad MFD/chartplotter, that's OK; once you put the autopilot into the correct "mode", it will follow the courses & headings dictated by the MFD/chartplotter, more-or-less regardless of brand. The one additional "perq" of using an Simrad MFD in this scenario is, you could then exercise complete control over the autopilot (including putting it in and out of "course following" mode) directly from the MFD, without ever having to touch the AP itself. That said, and as I mentioned before, this feature is at best only marginally useful on a small sailboat with a tiller-style autopilot.

    My b60 is 31-544-2-01 with a "5-pin male airmar"
    connector that is on a pretty short cable.

OK, now THAT part number IS for the "Mix and Match" version. The P/N you cited earlier is NOT.

    I am yet to get the mix and match cable so I
    am hoping my options are still open to other
    brands

If indeed you have the "M&M" version, that should be no problem.

    and my Garmin n2k stuff will just work with
    anything, maybe an appropriate connector is
    needed.

N2K is N2K, period. That's the beauty of it. There ARE some minor differences in both configuration details and overall quality between different brands of cables, T-connectors, etc.; but these differences are not so great as to rule out using "Brand A" cables with "Brand B" Tees, with a "Brand C" chartplotter and a "Brand D" autopilot (or whatever).

    I had been looking at the simrad and b&g stuff
    because of the autopilot interface and quite
    keen on it, but I read in the operations manual
    somewhere that it needed one of the autopilot
    computers and I was confused about what this
    meant when it came to the tp22.

I could be wrong; but AFAIK, the TP22 is completely self-contained, with a built-in heading sensor and all the required "brains" integrated into the single housing. The only exceptions to this are the need for external power, and the need for an external interface to your wind instruments (which can be done via NMEA 0183 or NMEA 2000) for steer-to-wind functions. The mentions of a "course computer" you saw were probably in reference to the models which use a separate control head and separate hydraulic ram or gear-drive, such as the AP24, AP28 and AP70 systems.

    What about the lowrance hds7 gen 2? Being
    from the same parent company as simrad and
    b&g I would have thought it would have been
    pretty similar under the hood, but can find
    no reference to interfacing with a autopilot.

As implied above, there's no reason you could not use a Lowrance MFD/chartplotter; but it will not provide that "headless autopilot control" feature, which is specific to the Simrad.

Frankly, I think that, given your boat and your stated goals, the TP22 is the right choice of autopilot; and that either the Garmin 700-series or the Simrad NSS7 or NSS8 would be your best bets for the MFD/chartplotter. Of the three, the NSS8 would likely be my first choice, simply because of the significantly larger screen vs. the other two. [And yes, the difference is much more than the overly simplistic "8-inch vs. 7-inch" comparison would imply. First, the NSS7's screen is really 6.5-inches, not 7-inches; and while the Garmin's screen is 7-inches diagonally, it is a so-called "Widescreen" type with a 16:9 aspect ratio, which means that its actual display AREA is significantly less than a "conventional" 4:3-aspect 7-inch screen would provide and MUCH less than a conventional 8-inch screen, such as the NSS8 sports.]

But it's your boat, and your money, and your choice. I suggest that you make a concerted effort to actually work with all three models, even if only in "demo mode" at your local dealer, or at a boat show, or similar. There will be many subtle (and some not-so-subtle) differences in the user interfaces which, while essentially indescribable in print, may make all the difference in the world to you in real life.

Good luck.

I have frequently skipped over this "What is the Garmin 6-pin Y-cable" thread because the title didn't trigger my interest. Now, having read it through, the information presented is invaluable to me as I proceed with my old downeast powerboat re-fit. I would like to upgrade to new technology and yet still retain elements of an older system and, until now, have assumed that compatibility issues could be easily recognized.

Thanks to both SaltNz and littldoo2 for doggedly working through your conversation. As a mechanical DIY'er, I have new appreciation for the expertise required to artfully pull together an electronic system that performs as envisioned.

I especially appreciate the time "littldoo2" has taken to provide clarity with specific and thorough responses to the kind of issues and considerations some of us don't even know we have.

Hello board. This is my first post and I could use some help. First some background. I have installed a Furuno FI-50 sailing package (FI50DSW) including mast head unit for wind direction/speed, hull mounted transducer for depth and speedo, two displays (one for wind and one multi) and the infamous Canbus to connect it all. The FI-5002 Canbus is great but instead of using T-connectors, requires stripped wires connected to bus style connector plugs. The wind data cable comes down the mast and is plugged directly to the wind instrument which is daisy chained to the multi-display. The same multi-display has another cable coming from the Canbus providing power and data from the hull mounted transducer. Everything works well but it should, it’s part of a package.

Now comes the second part of this adventure or tragedy. I have a Garmin 541s and aside from having chart plotting, would like data sent to the wind instrument for true wind along with being able to see SOG on the multi. There are other features I’m looking for but those are at the top of the list. The 541 is labeled as nmea 2000 “certified”. To me that means hook em up and they talk. I have connected the 541 in the manner prescribed including running a separate power to the 10 pin/Y port and a nmea 2000 cable to the 5 pin port. The 5 pin I stripped and connected the white and blue (from Furuno’s schematics) to the Canbus that presumably carry the NetH and NetL signaling. (Note, the red/black/ground on the 5 pin are not picked up by the Garmin 541 from the 2000 cable as Garmin only uses the 10 pin for power so, TWO cables). From talking to both furuno and garmin it all comes down to those two wires for the PGN packet transmission. So after connecting everything, I fire up the Garmin and when selecting on the NMEA 2000 setup, I get… ready? No signal. Either the package ID from Furuno is non-standard which I doubt or, there’s another problem I’m unaware of or Garmin is limited by what it will “see”.

Unfortunately, both those organizations know NOTHING about the other. They both state their systems will work and will send/receive data in the prescribed nmea 2000 PGN formatting. Sadly, I can’t find anyone who can confirm if it can/will work or if we’re talking apples/oranges and they just don’t interact. I’m willing to scrap the 541 and pick up the Furuno GP33 for the data but would like to first see this through as I already have the chartplotter.

Anyone know first hand if they talk? I realize they’re older units but well within the nmea 2000 requirements.

Any help is appreciated

Kurt

Connect the power wires in the Garmin cable to the Furuno breakout box. Remember that these cables are rarely cut so power is usually taken to the Garmin port. I think that all NMEA 2000 interfaces need a little power from the backbone, even if the device they are in is separately powered.

Thanks Ben,

I hadn't thought of that. I'll report back with the results.

Kurt

Kurt posted :

    Hello board. This is my first post and I
    could use some help. First some background.
    I have installed a Furuno FI-50 sailing
    package (FI50DSW) including mast head unit
    for wind direction/speed, hull mounted
    transducer for depth and speedo, two displays
    (one for wind and one multi) and the infamous
    Canbus to connect it all. The FI-5002 Canbus
    is great but instead of using T-connectors,
    requires stripped wires connected to bus style
    connector plugs.

For all intents and purposes, Furuno's "CAN Bus" IS NMEA 2000, save for shipping everything with the connectors uninstalled. The FI-5002 junction box is even listed by Defender as an "NMEA 2000 Junction Box", because it is electrically identical -- in effect, it's just six N2K Tee connectors all plugged together, plus a couple of (defeatable) terminating resistors.

That said, Furuno "permits" some additional flexibility in the way you wire this various stuff together which is outside the bounds of proper NMEA 2000 practice (such as daisy-chaining the various FI50 series instruments); but to my mind, this is probably not a terribly good idea, at least if done where you could follow NMEA 2000 standards. For sake of simplicity and ease of future troubleshooting & maintenance, I suggest that you stick to "standard" N2K practices wherever possible.

    The wind data cable comes down the mast and
    is plugged directly to the wind instrument
    which is daisy chained to the multi-display.

And this is exactly what I'm talking about.

Refer to http://www.furunousa.com/ProductDocuments/FI50DSW%20-%20Depth,%20Speed,%20Wind%20Package.pdf for the RIGHT way to connect this stuff.

While the masthead unit can (and should) connect directly to the FI-501, the FI-501 should in turn connect to the FI-5002 (port CN3 to CN5), NOT to the FI-503. The FI-503 in turn also connects DIRECTLY to the FI-5002 (again, port CN3 to CN5) via a separate N2K "Drop" cable. Similarly, the DST-800(PSF) also connects DIRECTLY to the FI-5002 (can you guess... port CN3 to CN5). And finally, the entire system is powered via the #000-166-944 Power Cable which was supplied with (and connects to) the FI-5002 (port CN1). Notably, this connection will ALSO power the rest of your NMEA 2000 bus, of which the FI-5002 becomes an integral part.

As noted above, the FI-5002 also includes switchable terminating resistors for each end of the (virtual) "backbone cable" that it internally forms. If you are using the FI-50 system as a stand-alone, with no connections to any other N2K devices, then both of these resistors should be enabled ("ON"), since in effect your N2K backbone does not extend beyond this box. But if you want to connect ANY other gear via NMEA 2000, then you will need to extend (at least) one end of that internal "backbone cable", which means turning that resistor OFF and using a standard plug-in N2K terminator wherever the extended cable actually terminates. See Figure 43 in the Furuno "CAN bus Network Design Guide" http://www.furunousa.com/ProductDocuments/Furuno%20CAN%20Bus%20Network%20Design.pdf for an example.

    Now comes the second part of this adventure
    or tragedy. I have a Garmin 541s and aside
    from having chart plotting, would like data
    sent to the wind instrument for true wind
    along with being able to see SOG on the multi.
    There are other features I’m looking for but
    those are at the top of the list.

That should all be quite do-able.

    The 541 is labeled as nmea 2000 “certified”.
    To me that means hook em up and they talk.

Well... Yes, BUT -- you have to hook em up CORRECTLY.

    I have connected the 541 in the manner prescribed

"Prescribed" where, exactly?

    including running a separate power to the 10 pin/Y
    port and a nmea 2000 cable to the 5 pin port.

So far, so good. But understand that THIS power connection is solely for the GPSmap 541S itself. It does NOT power the N2K bus.

    The 5 pin I stripped and connected the white
    and blue (from Furuno’s schematics) to the
    Canbus that presumably carry the NetH and NetL
    signaling.

This is where you screwed up, I think.

First, you obviously can't count on Furuno's internal color codes being the same as Garmin's. Just because Furuno might use blue & white for the N2K +/- data lines, doesn't mean Garmin will, particularly in a cable that was never designed or intended to be cut open or spliced by the installer or user.

Secondly, you really SHOULD connect ALL of the N2K lines, including (what Furuno refers to as) NET-H, NET-L, NET-S, NET-C, and Shield -- just as would be the case if you'd used conventional plug-in cables/connectors.

Thirdly, while you probably could jury-rig the Garmin's N2K drop connection directly to an unused port (CN3 to CN5) on the the FI-5002, I would avoid that. The far better way is to properly extend the N2K bus out one side of the FI-5002, using an appropriate length of standard N2K-spec cable and turning OFF the internal resistor for that side ONLY; then attach an N2K Tee connector for the Garmin to the other end of that cable, then an N2K terminator to the other size of the Tee (presuming that the backbone is ending there). Finally, use a conventional plug-in drop cable to connect the Garmin to the "top" of the Tee connector.

This will not only avoid the need to "hack" the Garmin's N2K drop cable; it will also provide much more obvious and definitive separation between the two systems/units with respect to the N2K bus itself, which will surely help simplify future maintenance and expansion of the network, and especially if/when you ever decide to replace any of this equipment.

    (Note, the red/black/ground on the 5 pin
    are not picked up by the Garmin 541 from
    the 2000 cable as Garmin only uses the 10
    pin for power so, TWO cables).

You seem to be confusing powering the 541S with powering the N2K bus and/or the N2K interface in the 541S. Those are two very different things.

    From talking to both furuno and garmin it
    all comes down to those two wires for the
    PGN packet transmission. So after connecting
    everything, I fire up the Garmin and when
    selecting on the NMEA 2000 setup, I get…
    ready? No signal. Either the package ID from
    Furuno is non-standard which I doubt or,
    there’s another problem I’m unaware of or
    Garmin is limited by what it will “see”.

The two devices will exchange data via NMEA 2000 just fine, once they're both properly installed. I say again: "Properly installed" means using a proper NMEA 2000 Backbone topology, and connecting each N2K device directly to that backbone via a dedicated drop cable.

    Unfortunately, both those organizations know
    NOTHING about the other. They both state their
    systems will work and will send/receive data
    in the prescribed nmea 2000 PGN formatting.

Which is true.

    Sadly, I can’t find anyone who can confirm
    if it can/will work or if we’re talking
    apples/oranges and they just don’t interact.

You're over-thinking this. Once you get everything wired correctly, they should "talk" (and listen!) just fine.

    I’m willing to scrap the 541 and pick up the
    Furuno GP33 for the data but would like to
    first see this through as I already have the
    chartplotter.

No need.

    Anyone know first hand if they talk? I realize
    they’re older units but well within the nmea
    2000 requirements.

And that's the point. When if comes to NMEA 2000, there are a near-infinite number of ways to do things wrong (you found at least one), but only a small handful of ways to do it right. And it MUST be done right.

    Any help is appreciated

Well, I hope I've provided that.

Thanks Ben,

I hadn't thought of that. I'll report back with the results.

Kurt

Great stuff and thank you Itteldoo2 - I appreciate your time and the information shared. I'd like to respond/clarify some of the info. The power confusion probably comes from the limited information I included on the email. The FI-5002 is already connected to a power source and supplying power to the FI 50 devices through the FI n2k cables. The blue/white are the two none-power wires (power being the red/black/ground) within the 5 pin Garmin n2k cable and coincidentally or intentionally, happen to match the furuno color schemes for NetH and NetL.

I agree with you on the daisy chaining. In my testing of different arrangements, I unplugged the FI daisy cable from the multi repeater to the wind repeater leaving the depth/power cable(from the FI-5002 J-box) to the multi-display to see if that changed anything from Garmin. It didn't but doesn't mean it doesn't come into play after other changes.

As for the suggested method of connecting the Garmin, this came from several phone conversations with Garmin techs. One didn't know any more than my wife does while the second was well versed and provided a step by step. My understanding is there isn't any wiring inside the garmin 541 box for the red/blk/grd off the 5-pin n2k connection/port. For power, they rely solely on the 10pin rather than having two power options. I did disconnect the r/b/g wires at the FI-5002 box to avoid a secondary power issue but at Ben's suggestion will reconnect and see what that does. Note, my first attempt was to only use the n2k cable (with power) to the 541 but it wouldn't power up. That's when I learned from the Garmin tech that power isn't connected off the n2k.

Moving the Garmin n2k to a backbone is a good suggestion. Yes, I get that the hacked approach of cutting off perfectly good connectors and stripping wires isn't the best way (and wasn't my choice) but it's what I have to work with. I'm really not impressed with the FI-5002 box to begin with and then add in marine climate on a racing sailboat etc... Anyway, for now if I've connected the wires correctly, I should at least get something but so far no signal.

From the responses, my two changes will be to first connect the Red/Blk/Ground to the n2k cable at the FI-5002 box and failing any results, will move the garmin n2k to a backbone and change the terminal jumper to Off.

thanks again for your help,

Kurt

Kurt posted :

    Great stuff and thank you Itteldoo2 - I
    appreciate your time and the information
    shared.

You're quite welcome. However, I have to point out that I might only be able to respond sporadically or after some significant delays. I'm up to my eyelids dealing with a flooded-out shore house, and also attempting making arrangements "on the fly" to move my boat from its backyard slip to a new yard for haul-out, winterization & storage (the old one got THOROUGHLY trashed by the storm, and just isn't capable of handling any more work right now).

    I'd like to respond/clarify some of the info.
    The power confusion probably comes from the
    limited information I included on the email.
    The FI-5002 is already connected to a power
    source and supplying power to the FI 50 devices
    through the FI n2k cables.

Understood. But the important thing for YOU to remember is that this is ALSO powering your NMEA 2000 bus, which it inherently forms the basis of. Hold that thought; it will come up again shortly.

    The blue/white are the two none-power wires
    (power being the red/black/ground) within the
    5 pin Garmin n2k cable and coincidentally or
    intentionally, happen to match the furuno color
    schemes for NetH and NetL.

Well, call that a happy coincidence. But it still doesn't change the fact that the power lines SHOULD be connected to any drop cables subsequently attached to the N2K bus. Whether any given individual devices "uses" those lines to power itself (some do, some don't) is at least mostly irrelevant. It's called for by the spec, and that's a good enough reason to do it. Also, while this may or may not apply to your particular device (i.e., that Garmin 541S), it is entirely possible that a device such as that would not be "powered from" the N2K bus, but would still require those lines to be "live" in order to sense the signal. To put it another way, the Network interface chip that's buried inside that GPS/Chartplotter box itself is in a sense a device unto itself. Regardless of how the rest of the unit is powered (and if it draws more than a trivial amount of power it WILL have a dedicated power feed for that very reason), the chip itself could require voltage on the N2K bus in order to "turn on", or at least to connect to the network. See below for a fuller explanation.

    I agree with you on the daisy chaining. In my
    testing of different arrangements, I unplugged
    the FI daisy cable from the multi repeater to
    the wind repeater leaving the depth/power cable
    (from the FI-5002 J-box) to the multi-display
    to see if that changed anything from Garmin. It
    didn't but doesn't mean it doesn't come into
    play after other changes.

The daisy-chaining itself is not so much "a bad thing" as it is "a non-standard thing." And since you are in effect building an NMEA 2000 network (as opposed to a purely Furuno-whatever network), you want to be absolutely as "standard" as possible.

    As for the suggested method of connecting the
    Garmin, this came from several phone conversations
    with Garmin techs. One didn't know any more than
    my wife does while the second was well versed and
    provided a step by step.

OK. But at least from your earlier description, it appears that you were trying to connect the Garmin's N2K drop cable to the port on the FI-5002 that is SUPPOSED to support the trunk-line extension. That is not good. At the least, you now have a termination problem; If you leave the FI-5002's internal terminator for that "end" of the N2K bus enabled, you potentially now have a "rogue" device hung off the end of the backbone after the terminator (whose job it is to absorb ALL the signal reaching that end of the bus in order to prevent reflections; hence, if it works up to snuff, little or no signal will reach the Garmin); OTOH, if you disable it, then you have one end of the bus not terminated at all (which will lead to all sorts of problems with reflections, impedance mismatches, etc.). Either way, it is a prescription for trouble.

    My understanding is there isn't any wiring inside
    the garmin 541 box for the red/blk/grd off the 5-pin
    n2k connection/port. For power, they rely solely on
    the 10pin rather than having two power options.

As I said above, the Garmin unit in general is not powered from the N2K bus. But that's beside the point. Even presuming that the NIC (Network Interface Chip) is NOT externally powered (via the N2K bus), it very easily might need to "see" voltage on those lines in order to sense an active bus and thus proceed to attempt (based on its inbuilt microcode) making a (logical) connection to that bus. Only after that low-level negotiation has been successfully completed will the NIC then tell the host unit (i.e., the rest of the chartplotter) "I'm here and I have a live connection to the N2K bus!"

    I did disconnect the r/b/g wires at the FI-5002
    box to avoid a secondary power issue but at Ben's
    suggestion will reconnect and see what that does.

Do that. But don't stop there. You NEED to implement a proper "backbone extension" off that FI-5002, in order to properly connect the Garmin to the N2K bus.

I would suggest that since you've already hacked up a drop cable, and since this is apparently a very short cable run anyway (so the somewhat higher resistance & capacitance of that presumably "skinny" cable -- as compared to "proper" thick-ish backbone cable -- won't really matter in practice), use that cable as your "backbone extension", then add the other needed bits (tee connector, plug-in terminator, and new drop cable for the Garmin) to complete that end of the network.

    Note, my first attempt was to only use the n2k
    cable (with power) to the 541 but it wouldn't
    power up. That's when I learned from the Garmin
    tech that power isn't connected off the n2k.

Right. But that is in the context of powering the unit as a whole. See above.

    Moving the Garmin n2k to a backbone is a good
    suggestion.

No, NO, NO!

This is precisely the opposite of what you need to do. With the exception of the power-injector (which in your case is integrated into the FI-5002), NO N2K device is EVER connected directly to the backbone. You ALWAYS use a tee and a drop cable. This is the ONLY way to ensure a properly terminated (and therefore properly functioning) bus.

    Yes, I get that the hacked approach of cutting
    off perfectly good connectors and stripping wires
    isn't the best way (and wasn't my choice) but it's
    what I have to work with.

That is true ONLY in the context of the Furuno instruments themselves. It might help you to think of that collection of gear as one integrated "system", which "occupies" a small section of the larger NMEA 2000 network. The FI-5002 is really a (very short) extension of the N2K backbone; and the individual connections from the instruments are themselves "drops". The "stripped wire to terminal block" approach can (and SHOULD) be limited to those devices only. Anything and everything else that you connect to your boat's N2K network (including the rest of the backbone) should be done via conventional plug-in connections.

    I'm really not impressed with the FI-5002 box to
    begin with and then add in marine climate on a
    racing sailboat etc...

I can sort'a understand their approach IF one assumes going in that all the FI-50 series stuff will form an independent stand-alone system, with no regard for the larger picture of the ship's NMEA 2000 network as a whole. But OTOH, I would think that they would (or at least "should") also offer these devices with "generic" N2K connectors for simpler integration into an existing N2K network. (I know that at least the DST-800 is definitely available that way -- I have one in my boat.) But "Not Invented Here Syndrome" can be a powerful force.

    Anyway, for now if I've connected the wires
    correctly, I should at least get something but
    so far no signal.

See above. So far, you do NOT have the wires connected correctly.

Good luck.

Follow-up. I'm happy to report your advice to connect the 3 power wires on the Garmin n2k cable to the FI-5002 Canbus worked. The 541s woke up and is now talking nicely to the Furuno devices. Great stuff and thank you all for the help.