Lowrance N2K FM/VHF, and more

... written for Panbo by Ben Ellison and posted on Aug 21, 2007

Lowrance_LVR-880

If you check the bigger image, you’ll see the FM band button, a welcome first for a fixed VHF radio. But maybe better yet, I think, is the Lowrance style NMEA 2000 plug on the back.


The press release says the unit “integrates NMEA 2000 with DSC-101 for distress and buddy-tracking features when connected to a compatible Lowrance GPS chartplotter. An exclusive ‘Track Your Buddy’ feature connects DSC position polling to Lowrance LCX, LMS and GlobalMap units via the NMEA 2000 network for GPS location display of up to three boating friends.” The LVR-880 also has a regular 0183 interface, but I’m hoping that it uses standard 2000 messages, so in fact will share GPS and DSC position info with other N2K plotter/GPS’s, but my optimism is tempered by that ‘exclusive’ word and other details we know (like how the new Garmin’s won’t send it GPS yet). Let’s just say that using the 2000 protocol could make this radio really easy to set up with two way data comms, even to multiple other-brand devices. (Maybe they’ll let me experiment.)
  And there’s lots more of note on Lowrance’s press release page. Like the fact that most all new Lowrance plotters can now display Navionics Platinum charts and lake maps, especially impressive as the units already work with a variety of formats. The company is also introducing a black box Broadband Sounder that’s said to produce “digitally purified”, “you won’t believe your eyes” echo clarity. It talks Ethernet and can plug directly into many existing Lowrance displays, or multiple displays via a new Navico Expansion Port. (I’d guess that the latter’s name means it will be sold across several Navico brands; why not?)

Posted by Ben E on August 21, 2007 6:36 PM

Comments

Giving a VHF Marine Band radio a NMEA-2000 interface is a very smart decision. I hope other manufacturers take this same path.

A constant topic in most boat electronic discussions is how to connect a radio to a GPS and chart plotter. Lowrance has just eliminated that problem.

Posted by: jimh at August 24, 2007 9:18 AM | Reply

Here are some additional videos and pictures I've done on the Garmin 545 CP. They include navigation functions (g2 & g2 Vision), SST info over g2 vision offshore bathy charts and a number of XM Weather/Garmin 545 screen videos. The last is a picture of the 545 install on my Whaler.

http://bluewaterpirate.phanfare.com/album/389795/548566#imageID=25287025

http://bluewaterpirate.phanfare.com/album/389795/536485#imageID=24758967

http://bluewaterpirate.phanfare.com/album/362929

http://bluewaterpirate.phanfare.com/show/external/354225/482290/21998609/file.jpg

Please feel free to post these to the Panbo Site. I really enjoy the articles and information.

Posted by: bluewaterpirate at August 31, 2007 8:19 AM | Reply

I noticed recently that on the Lowrance website the LVR-880 radio has been upgraded to a Class-D DSC radio where formerly it was just mentioned as SC-101 rated. See:

http://www.lowrance.com/Products/Marine/LVR-850-DSC-VHF-Marine-Radio/LVR-880/

I think this is great news. Finally a modern DSC Class-D radio that can be simply plugged into a NMEA-2000 network. I think this is a first.

Posted by: Jim Hebert at March 5, 2008 12:59 AM | Reply

I don't think so, Jim, unfortunately. I too find the text confusing:

"Full Class-D or SC-101 automatic distress operation with high-res position polling and group calling via NMEA 0183/NMEA 2000® output to chartplotters..."

But I'd guess it means Class-D type DSC features, not Class-D type dual receivers.

Posted by: Ben at March 5, 2008 2:53 PM | Reply

The lvr 880 is currently in the process of being homologated for use in Europe. To my knowledge this will only succeed with full class-d specs.

Posted by: Peter at March 23, 2008 2:37 PM | Reply

The Lowrance LVR-880 webpages still say "Full Class-D or SC-101" DSC, which is rather vague. But they have the manual available for download, and in Appendix A, it says:
Digital Selectivity Calling (DSC):
SC101 for LVR-880US
Class D (EN301-025) for LVR-880EU

It's odd they would bother with two versions. I wonder if US customers can get the EU version?

Posted by: norse at November 4, 2008 1:02 PM | Reply

Norse, I think it's quite common for manufacturers to have separate radios for the U.S. and European markets, and I think it's mostly because the lower cost SC101 sets can't be sold in Europe but VHF sets in this country are often purchased on price.

Posted by: Ben at November 4, 2008 6:21 PM | Reply

I tried to figure out from the internet prices around the world how much more they charge for full Class D over SC101. The recent market changes make that hard, but I don't think it's very much as far as the official price goes. (For the actual price, the US has better deals.) I would think anyone paying this much for a VHF would see the value in a spending a few more dollars for the full DSC.

Posted by: norse at November 5, 2008 3:05 AM | Reply

The LVR-880 Operation Instructions manual gives this information:

• DSC (Digital Select Calling) capability that meets USCG SC101 standards. LVR-880US only
• DSC (Digital Select Calling) capability that meets EC Class D standards. LVR-880EU only
• ATIS facility for inland waterways. LVR-880EU only
Priority channel (LVR-880EU only)

16/9 Priority channel LVR-880US only.
SCAN (TRI WATCH Mode) LVR-880US only.
WX Weather channel. LVR-880US only.
WX ALT LVR-880US only.

So it seems that you have to trade WX for full Class D.

Posted by: Olsonist at February 22, 2009 5:04 PM | Reply

It's too bad that this LVR-880 won't be a Class-D rated DSC radio in the U.S.

I guess we will have to wait for GARMIN to bring out their new Class-D DSC radio with NMEA-2000 networking. Their VHF-200 model should provide those features, but at considerably higher cost.

https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=250&pID=28721

Posted by: jimh at February 24, 2009 2:20 AM | Reply

The thing about the WX channels is odd. After all, they are regular channels and the wx buttons are just a convenience. I called Lowrance and they said in Canada you do get Class-D and you do get the weather channels. I don't know how to confirm this short of buying one. VHF in Canada always have a US/International switch.

Posted by: Anonymous at February 24, 2009 12:29 PM | Reply

I'll buy the LVR-880EU if I can verify that it receives the NOAA weather channels. So far I haven't been able to.

The US version has the UIC mode (section 4-1) which allows you to choose from US, International or Canadian channel banks. This is US only and the implication is that the EU version is set to receive only the International channel bank: no NOAA.

I've called Lowrance twice but I gave up after 25 minutes on hold. But I'll figure this out before I buy.

Posted by: Olsonist at February 25, 2009 2:45 PM | Reply

I went through the manual and it's pretty clear that the EU version does not have the 10 wx channels (the 7 NOAA weather radio channels, which are the same in US and Canada, plus two more Canadian weather channels 21B and 83B, and one more 163.275 which is said to be no longer in active use). The EU version has other channels specific to various European countries. This is presumably just a firmware difference.

It's also stated in the manual that DSC is Class D in EU and SC101 in US versions. There is some small hope that they are both Class D, either because of a recent upgrade not mentioned in the manual or because a Class D meets the SC101 standard (and more). That may be wishful thinking.

Posted by: norse at February 26, 2009 2:10 AM | Reply

I tracked down a senior marketing guy at Lowrance.

All of Lowrance radios can be cloned for different areas for global sales. Our EU version keypad has mechanically different key ICONS. It only has CH16 key. USA model has 16/9 to select the 2nd Coast Guard calling channel. In addition, the EU radio has no Weather (Wx) key, since NOAA weather in not functional in EU. We customized the EU radio for easier customer usage with no “useless keys”. Our LVR-880E fits the European market better in our opinion.

The reason a DSC Class D separate Channel 70 receiver was not added to the USA model is simply a matter of cost. Lowrance is a high volume brand where tradeoffs have to be made to meet price requirements, yet offer high performance. The difference in a Class D dedicated receiver and a scanned receiver is in the probability of missed calls. Frankly, missed call performance is not that much different. For example, the urgent distress message is repeated multiple times for assurances in critical times. No safety is compromised. Class D receivers are not full duplex – i.e. they cannot receive during transmit time. We decided to leave it out.

We feel the addition of a full stereo FM receiver, SAME weather, and Great Circle Navigation to WPTS (as a backup navigator) has more customer value benefits than a Class D receiver in USA. We do hope you agree.

I do agree. You always want more. You always want what's next. But at $160 the LVR-880US represents simply an awesome value proposition.

Posted by: Olsonist at February 27, 2009 1:55 PM | Reply

"We feel the addition of a full stereo FM receiver, SAME weather, and Great Circle Navigation to WPTS (as a backup navigator) has more customer value benefits than a Class D receiver in USA."
--------

I find LOWRANCE's thinking to be a bit odd in this regard:

--the U.S. Coast Guard recommendation for DSC is Class-D, so omission of it is in direct conflict with the marine authority in the U.S.;

--reception of FM broadcast stations has traditionally been left to entertainment devices, not vessel safety devices;

--the LVR-880 will most likely be connected to an antenna which is not optimized for the 88- to 108 MHz FM Broadcast band;

--ability to demodulate FM Stereo broadcasts seems somewhat of a moot point in a device which has only one loudspeaker;

--considering the target market is recreational vessels, the ability to perform Great Circle navigation seems unlikely to produce much benefit, as most small boats do not sail on voyages of such length that a Great Circle course would be advantageous.

Posted by: Jim Hebert at February 28, 2009 9:09 AM | Reply

Jim, how many DSC calls did you send or receive last year? It seems to me that DSC is a terrific technology that sadly is hardly used.

Also, please check out the LVR-880 specs. It does have a separate FM antenna input, and comes with a simple wire FM antenna; it also has amplified stereo audio output; and it cuts from FM to VHF whenever the selected VHF channel breaks squelch. It can even scan VHF while playing FM. I've tried all those capabilities and they work pretty well.

Posted by: Ben E at February 28, 2009 10:28 AM | Reply

The CG has several recommendations for DSC, one of which is RTCM SC101, which the 880US adheres to. From NavCen,

RTCM Recommended Minimum Standard for DSC, Version 1.0, 10 Aug 1995, RTCM Paper 56-95/SC101-STD. Applies to VHF and to MF/HF. This standard is not generally recognized outside of the U.S. and should be replaced soon by the ITU Class D and E.
Furthermore, it is not the case that Class D is a superset of SC101. For example, Class D does not require:
• Acknowledgment or unable to comply response
• Receive Geographical area calls

FM is a nice feature provided at low cost. I'm sure there are better FM receivers out there but at additional cost, space, splitter or antenna and cabling. On Saturdays, I like to listen to KALX if there's a Cal game on. Work's for me.

Great Circle navigation is a handy which way is it feature. Handy maybe even useful.

Anyways, it's $160 or there's the $300 Class D Garmin coming out in a month or so.

The issue we were addressing is whether we'd trade WX in the 880US version for the Class D 880EU version. I'll take WX. Will I take FM over Class D and a $140? I'll definitely take FM.

Posted by: Olsonist at February 28, 2009 12:11 PM | Reply

Ben: My experience with DSC use among recreational boaters for making non-emergency calls to other boats has been it is largely ignored. In spite of cajoling all my boating friends to become acquainted with operating their DSC-capable radios, trading our MMSI numbers, laboriously entering them into our radios, and otherwise spending time trying to get ready to use DSC, the actual occurrence of an unanticipated DSC call among us has been about zero. Most calls have been test calls to see if the technology worked. The success rate has been low, too, unfortunately. The only success we've had is between two radios where both were Class-D. SC-101 radio operation seems to be an enigma to its user.

Thanks for the clarification on the separate antenna input for the FM Broadcast Band receiver section of the LVR-880. Having a separate input does not guarantee an optimum antenna will be used. A split from the VHF Marine Band antenna might be better than many other options in a small boat.

As for the separate stereo audio outputs, that feature will be attractive for boaters who have audio amplifiers and loudspeakers, although I wonder if the Marine Band radio interruptions will be welcomed.

--

Olsonist: If the LVR-880 has all the qualities of a Class-D except the dedicated Ch. 70 receiver, is will be a cut above most SC-101 rated radios, which in my experience tend to fail the required learn-to-use-in-ten-minute test.

For a brief summary of the difference between Class-D and SC-101, see

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/dscClassD.html

I agree, the price point is terrific. It's a breakthrough for NMEA-2000 radios.

For me, give me Class-D and keep the FM Broadcast Band receiver. It should have been an option in the US.

Posted by: Jim Hebert at February 28, 2009 2:49 PM | Reply

All: Check out the Panbo forum. There is now a running discussion about the use of DSC among recreational boaters.

Click on forum on the top right side of this web page.

Posted by: Dan Corcoran (b393capt) at March 1, 2009 12:37 PM | Reply

Regarding the following....

"Most calls have been test calls to see if the technology worked. The success rate has been low, too, unfortunately. The only success we've had is between two radios where both were Class-D....

I'd sure like to hear more about this! Are we chasing new features using a new standard, that really doesn't work when we need it? Has anyone tested whether two boats really will show up on each other's chart-plotters when correctly connected and signaled? That's what all the manuals claim you can do, regardless of brand.

Posted by: Stenn at March 17, 2009 6:59 AM | Reply

can anyone tell me if I can use a flush mounted stereo speaker for tne hailer on my 880? Does anyone make a flush mount hailer horn?

Posted by: Anonymous at March 19, 2009 8:10 AM | Reply

After March 2011 the FCC will no longer permit RTCM SC-101 DSC radios to be sold in the United States. Where does this leave the US-version of the Lowrance LVR-880?


Will Lowrance update their US-version to include Class-D DSC rating?

Posted by: Jim Hebert at November 7, 2010 10:58 AM | Reply

I don't know, Jim. It would be nice if Lowrance introduced a Class D VHF with NMEA 2000, but note that Simrad just came out with two new Class D VHF units that are based on older Northstar designs and do not support N2K/SimNet integration:

http://www.simrad-yachting.com/Products/Communication-AIS/Fixed-VHF/

Posted by: Ben E in reply to Jim Hebert at November 7, 2010 12:15 PM | Reply

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